ZEBRA TALK - Humanising leadership: leading with dignity.
In conversation with Donna Hicks, Associate at the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, Harvard University: Author of Dignity and Leading with Dignity.
Born out of her experience working within International Conflict Resolution, Dr Donna Hicks speaks with Matt Meyer about The Dignity Model and the vital role that dignity plays in the workplace, human leadership and building a culture that brings out the best in people.
The full transcript of this podcast episode can be found below.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
Please note that this transcript is auto-generated from the audio file through Rev - Humans Working Side By Side With The Best Speech-to-Text AI. We believe this to be a good representation of the conversation, but it isn’t checked word-for-word and therefore isn’t 100% accurate.
Matt Meyer
Absolutely great to be having this conversation today. Haven't caught up with you for a couple of months in that the world's been racing by in between, but we, we originally met on a program that you launched through your new organization, the Hicks Institute, which was around leading with dignity. For me, that was a fascinating program that we joined each other on. And the reason it was fascinating was because your work had started in the broader domain of conflict resolution and particularly in international affairs, but you were taking that learning and applying your model and your approach to that, the leadership world, I was going to say the business world, but I think it's broader than that. It's about leadership. I thought it'd be really interesting to kick off this conversation, just in your own words, learning a little bit about your own background in conflict resolution and some of the amazing experiences and people that you worked with there. And then talking about how you took that experience into the leadership domain.
Donna Hicks
Well, that was an outcome taking the work from the international conflict experiences into the business world in particular was I had never imagined Matt that I would end up there, but as luck would have it, it happened. And I started out, as you mentioned, for many years, for a couple of decades working in the field of international conflict resolution. And my program at Harvard was often asked to go into really tough conflict situations and tractable conflicts like the middle east, Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, Columbia, all of these really tough conflicts that have been going on and on. And what we would do that was unique was we would bring the parties together and ask them to try to jointly come up with ideas, that address the political issues that divided them. So instead of each party bringing a proposal in and then haggling over that, we said, no, we're going to try to do this together.
So we were discussing all of the political issues that divided the, let's say we were in working in the Israeli Palestinian conflict. They would be discussing things about how to address settlements or refugees or the borders. And there would be a time when all of a sudden there was this explosive energy in the room and the people would get really upset. And I would watch this and I'd say to myself, you know, while I'm facilitating the dialogue, I'd say to myself, ‘what's going on here? What just happened?’ And they'd keep going back and forth arguing about the issue they were talking about. And let's say it was where to put the capital, you know, because both parties wanted it in Jerusalem. And so at some point I realized, wait a minute, there's another conversation taking place here. There's two conversations in the room - one is at the table. The other one is under the table.
And what was going on I felt was that there was an emotional just tsunami that ran underneath that table. And when they got close to those really fragile tender issues, then somebody would explode and I'm thinking, ‘oh my gosh, we have to address that’. And I would say: ‘Hey, something just happened here. There was just really big emotional upheaval. Can we talk about that?’ And these high powered negotiators, Matt, they didn't want to talk about emotional issues. They said: ‘emotional? This is not emotional. This is about justice. This is okay’. So I ditched that word. And then I realized, wait a minute, we have to figure out how to unpack all of that energy of the outbursts. And so to make a very long story short, I finally realized that this wasn't about the issues that they were arguing. This was about something deeper, something way deeper. And then I finally, at one point realized that this was about their dignity.
You know, Matt, this was about ‘how dare you treat us this way? You know, how dare you, can't you see we're suffering?’ But they didn't want to say that at these high powered negotiating tables. So I figured that the word dignity might open some doors. If I said to the parties: ‘Hey look, before we start talking about the politics, can we have a conversation about the ways in which you feel your dignity has been violated by this conflict?’ Well, that was the flood gates open. Then Matt, when I asked both sides that question, I got stories like you wouldn't believe. And it wasn't just their personal stories. It was the stories of their ancestors. You know, the narratives that got passed down like a dominant gene.
And so I realized that I had to write about this. I felt like I uncovered a missing link in my understanding of conflict. And I wanted to share it with my community. So I wrote this book called Dignity: Central Role in Resolving Conflict. And lo and behold, when the book was published, it hit a nerve in the corporate world. It hit a nerve in healthcare. It hit a nerve in education, in faith communities. And it's like, oh, they said to me: ‘I think you really articulated what our problems are. The conflicts that we're having in the workplace. I'll focus this now in the business world’. And I thought: ‘whoa, really? Okay, you think it's about dignity?’ And so I went into these corporate settings, Matt, and introduced the whole dignity concept to them. And sure enough, there were so many unaddressed dignity violations inside these organizations, these companies that were creating the most toxic, really toxic work environments, because nobody was talking about these assaults to dignity.
They were just like brushing them under the carpet. And this one employee said to me: ‘Dignity violations? Oh yeah, we've got those here. In fact, it's my job to suck it up. When I get it, there's no way I could talk to my boss about it.’ So that's how it all happened. And then after I went in to the corporate setting, I realized that if the Executive Leadership team in particular, Matt, wasn't onboard with understanding the impact of these dignity assaults on their people, if they didn't get this, then nothing would change in the organization. So that's when I wrote a second book called Leading with Dignity: how to create a culture that brings out the best in people, because I found out that the minute the leadership recognized the impact of some of their harmful behaviours. And we're not talking about bad people here, Matt, we're talking about people who just never were introduced to this notion of dignity. I mean, 90% of the people I work with have never even given dignity a second thought, but the way I frame it and the way I talk about it, everybody gets it really fast. Like: ‘Oh yeah.’ And so these are really good people who just have had no exposure and the ignorance surrounding it was so enormous that all I had to do was really go in there and do what I call dignity education - introducing them to everything that I have learned. So it was so fascinating. I didn't expect it, Matt. I didn't expect that this would hit such a nerve with CEOs and their teams. And they were fantastic about it. Actually, it was so heartwarming to see the reception of this idea.
Matt Meyer
It's a great story. And I'd love to come back to talking a bit more about some of the corporate work you do. But the observation I had when I read Dignity - your first book, the thing that really struck me was that this concept of dignity was possibly the first time these conflicting parties found something in common. It was a very human thing. They both, they had different experiences of dignity violations. And you talk about, you know, not denying people, their experiences, even if you disagree with the interpretation of them, but it was a very human experience. And I think that's powerful. I'm imagining you in that situation, you know, back at that part of your career. I mean, I'm, I'm guessing it's not easy to take that model in to those high-powered conflict resolution situations with those high-powered negotiators and suddenly land this new concept on the table. How was the experience of that for you as an individual? How did that play out in practice?
Donna Hicks
What was really powerful about it for me was that once I understood what I had uncovered - what I call the missing link and understanding of conflict, once I realized that this was a human issue, this wasn't just about international conflicts this was about conflicts when human beings feel like they're not seen, they're not heard, they're not validated. They're not recognized as something of value, value and worth. I mean, my simple definition of dignity is our inherent value and worth. Once I figured out how to talk about it with these high powered people, whether it was at the negotiating tables or in the corporate world or anywhere, I just felt like I had struck gold. I felt I had struck gold in my understanding of a fundamental human characteristic. And it's not about being from the middle east or North America, Europe, Asia, it's about being a member of the human species.
And so I felt so confident Matt, in what I had uncovered and how I had done all this research and studied some really powerful writers and biologists. And once I put it together, I thought I really have something to contribute. So even though it was very intimidating, maybe in the past, I felt much more intimidated, but armed with this knowledge, this what I call dignity consciousness, armed with that I felt like I really could help them figure out how to renegotiate a relationship and how to be together in a way where both sides, both parties, whether it was in the workplace or wherever, everybody felt like they were something of value. That was the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. And so even to this day, people always ask me that question, Matt, you know, isn't that scary? No, because I'm only the messenger for this concept. It's not about me. It's about what I have learned and what I feel I can share with the rest of the world. So it's just fun. I'm just enjoying it.
Matt Meyer
The essence of it for me or the thing that really landed with me, and I described very badly, and I'm going to ask you in a minute to describe it better, but you talk about the difference between things like respect and credibility being earned. But actually dignity is something that you're born with and it's taken away from you rather than it's something you build. And I think that's a really, for me personally, a really powerful observation, which goes to the heart of this model for me, which is that it's not actually about hierarchy and structure, whether that's in, the inter-governmental level, whether that's within a corporate environment, it's about the human piece, which is not about hierarchy or structure at all. How would you describe to our listeners what the model is? You know, what's the kind of thumbnail sketch, the essence of the model? And what does it mean to think about it in a, particularly in a business or a work context?
Donna Hicks
Well, I think the, the fundamental goal, when I go into an organization and I'm asked to address, maybe there's a big conflict between management and employees, let's say, what I do first is assess what's going on, what's happening here. And then I frame it in terms of violations to dignity in the relationships that are troubled, you know, the relationships that have broken down. And so my very first order of business, when I go in, after I assess what was happening, I do what I call a dignity education project. So everybody in the organization learns about basically five fundamental building blocks. Number one is just what the definition is of dignity. Like you said, it's not respect. Most people say, oh, dignity and respect as if it were one word, but I make that distinction. It just, as you, I thought you said it beautifully, actually that respect is something that's earned, but dignity is something that is part of our birth right.
We all are born into the world and we may differ in status, especially in the work environment, but we are all equal in dignity. That's the first piece, the second piece is, okay so then what does it look like? Dignity is something we all have. Well, what does it look like while I share something called the 10 elements of dignity? I did some research and found out that there were universal ways in which people wanted to be treated if they were treated with dignity. So I have these 10 elements. I go through that. Now probably one of the most fundamental parts of the model is the science behind it, Matt, because, you know, when I go into the corporate world, the CEOs would say: ‘Oh, we're, you know, this, this dignity stuff. It's really nice. And touchy, feely, and oh yeah, but you know what? We need hard data here.’ I said: Okay, you want some hardcore evidence that this is real? And that this matters this, these dignity issues. And I share this neuroscience with them that shows that when we experience a dignity violation, when someone assaults our dignity, that it shows up in the brain in the same area as a physical injury. So the brain doesn't know the difference between a wound to its dignity and a physical wound. And we all know this because when we're humiliated by a dignity violation, we know that visceral response that we get. But, you know, it's never been validated by science. And now it is. So that piece, the neuroscience piece really opens doors for me. I get executives saying, okay, well, if that's really true, if this neuroscience shows that when people feel their dignity is not being honoured, that it has the same effect as a physical injury, they say to me, we'd never go let anybody in our organization or our company go around physically assaulting each other. So we can't allow dignity violations either.
So that piece, that second piece of the model versus the definition, the neuroscience, the third is actually the, I jumped because the third is the 10 elements of dignity. And then there's another piece of it called the 10 temptations to violate dignity. This is the other building block, which basically says that we humans are hardwired to actually violate our own dignity. We have these internal automatic impulses that when we feel like we're under threat, we will do anything not to look bad in the eyes of others. So we have all of these tendencies that are wired in our brains that make us not want to tell the truth, you know, will want to save face, will, you know, shirk responsibility. We'll pretend that we didn't make a mistake. All of these things, part of the basic understanding of dignity.
And then finally, you know, at the end of it is, is really about what it means to connect with other people, to be in relationship with other people in a way that actually honors each other state, because we are also hard wired for empathy. We're hardwired to feel with others, and we're hard wired to want to connect with other people. So it's so beautiful. You know, the fact is, yeah, it starts out as a kind of a negative thing. You know, we have our dignity assaulted and then we move to our, here's what you have to do to get those powerful, loving, wonderful human connections with people. So the model takes you through all of that and it shows you, this is the thing, it shows you exactly what it looks like to put this into practice. And, you know, I actually Matt think that this dignity work is spiritual practice because it's really about making connections with other people in a way that makes them feel positive and wonderful, and not only yourself, but when you have a relationship where both parties are treating each other with dignity, it doesn't get much better than that, Matt.
Matt Meyer
Right. And I think, you know, that that whole concept of how we behave at work, you know, should it be professional or should it be human or are they different things over there? Are they overlapping things I think is a really interesting debate for us to have, you know, particularly in the context of the last 18 months where we've know, never have we seen the importance more of those, those human connections in a professional or a working environment. So I think that that, that idea of humanity at work is an interesting one. In your experience, and I'm conscious that, you know, lots of your work, practice is in the US but do you still see a reticence to show that humanity in the professional environment, or do you think that's changing positively?
Donna Hicks
Well, I think that was one of the silver linings in COVID was that, and I was talking about this earlier today, because everyone was disconnected and yes, we tried to stay connected with zoom or whatever platform we tried that, you know, it was really challenging, let's face it. And a lot of people felt a lot of stress and anxiety and all of that, but what was really wonderful was the fact that I was able to reach far beyond the US. I did a big project in New Zealand with some colleagues, and Paul - the work that I've been doing with our shared friend Paul Barnett and it just made it possible to help people through those really challenging times where they were in over their head - they're home, they're trying to take care of their kids, they're trying. So there was so much anxiety and so much that people just needed to have a way to express what they were going through. And I think the challenge for CEOs and for people who were in leadership positions was what do I do with all of this? You know, how do I cope with all of this? These are new things that most CEOs or most leadership teams didn't have to deal with in pre COVID. So it really focused more on creating a safe environment inside the organization so that people could say to their boss or to their manager: ‘Look, I'm having a really hard time here, and I need to step back for a, you know, a couple of hours, I need to take care of my kid’, whatever, but this idea of creating a safe environment for them to say really what was going on and what they were up against.
The interesting thing was that, that dynamic, that vulnerability dynamic, where not only were the employees feeling vulnerable, but the leadership team also felt vulnerable because they were dealing with stuff they've never had to deal with, and they didn't know what they were doing, but they ended up doing a beautiful job just by being, by connecting in that deeper, emotional way. And by being humble, you know, by saying: ‘look, this is, this is, this must be really hard. And, and I, I can't imagine what you're going through.’ So that humility, bringing that humility to the leadership repertoire and this idea that I just need to acknowledge what's happening there for you and giving people space. And so the dignity tools that present when I do my work with people that helped them enormously during COVID, because they realized that human connection, that human dimension of their job was more important at that moment than the business plan, you know, where they're focusing on shareholder profits and that human dimension was more important than anything. And not only that, but they realized that moving forward, they wanted to keep that vulnerability. They wanted to keep that humility. They wanted to keep that capacity to really connect with, and acknowledge what their people were going through.
Matt Meyer
No, that for me is a really interesting observation because I think we've heard so many stories of, of organizations where, and that human connection, that sort of cultural evolution that happened during COVID actually led to a much stronger operational performance. And not only do people like working in that environment, it's been, it's been proven for many organizations that actually they're stronger commercially as a result of it. And I think, you know, back to your science point, the ability to show that positive return on investment in culture, I think has been absolutely fascinating. And it strikes me that, you know, we couch the start of this conversation in, in conflict and conflict resolution. And I'm sure you're brought into organizations where there's a perceived conflict, but it sounds like, you know, actually what much of what you end up working on is about cultural evolution and improvement rather than the specific conflict that might've been the red flag, um, to raise the request for help. I mean, it's culture, something that you're seeing those senior leaderships talk to you about is that, you know, is that still a difficult concept for people to talk about in the work environment or, or is it getting easier for people to say, no, I do actually need to, I do actually need to take the human approach in my organization because the culture is significant. It's the culture that's going to drive that performance in the organization going forward.
Donna Hicks
Yeah, I think it's easier now, at least with the people I've worked with it seems to be, because they've had some experience focusing on the human dimension and watching the effect that it had on the culture. So, for example, one of the things that we found happening was that when I worked inside an organization that had a, let's call it a toxic culture, where dignity violations were happening all the time, and it was part of the norm, you know, the norm was ‘okay, this is okay to do this, and nobody's going to speak up. So let's just continue it.’ But once the people, especially people in the leadership team became what I call dignity conscious, once they realized the impact of those implicit dignity violating norms, once they recognized what it did, not only to the people, but to the performance of the company, they were shocked.
They were absolutely shocked because some of the research that my colleagues have done shows that when people in the work environment feel that their dignity is being honored, they're being seen, they're being heard, their grievances are being heard, they're being recognized - productivity increases, employee engagement increases, a willingness to give discretionary energy increases, loyalty increases. And last but not least, just like you were saying earlier, profits also increase. So, I mean, this is for me, it's a no brainer. It's a no brainer for leadership that this is a way to shift the culture. Not only so that it becomes a pleasant place to work, but because it actually, you know, maximizes what the old paradigms were, which is the wealth and the profit making,the shareholder wealth, all of this stuff. And then on top of it, just having a workforce that feels like the culture recognizes them and honors them and is concerned and cares about their wellbeing. And they're so willing to give so much more, that's the beauty of it
Matt Meyer
Well you make the case beautifully. And then that's very much aligned with the principles of the Zebra Project, which we’re supporting and proceeding with the Zebra Talk podcast. You know, I'm a leader. Many of the listeners to our podcast are leaders. You know, we're not always blessed with self-awareness about the impact of all the things we do. To get to the heart of the matter, what are your top three dignity violations that you're seeing in organizations and, and what are the top three things that you'd be recommending to people to defend their dignity in light of those kinds of challenges.
Donna Hicks
Love that question, because I love my answer. The answer that I'm going to give you, I would not have predicted. So when I went into the first consultation that I did in the corporate world, it was a huge corporation. And I asked the employees, once I gave them the 10 elements of dignity, I said: ‘which one of these elements of dignity would you say are violated the most in your work environment?’ And so there was identity - acceptance of identity, recognition, fairness, acknowledgement, safety, benefit of the doubt, understanding and apology - the need for apology. So among those, I was thinking: ‘oh, people will probably say fairness or maybe recognition or lack of understanding’, but no, 80% of the respondents said that the most violated element of dignity was safety, that they did not feel safe to speak up when something bad happened to them at work, they did not feel safe to bring their full, authentic selves to the workplace. They felt like they had to hide aspects of who they are because they were afraid if they were truly their authentic selves, that they'd be negatively judged. And, and I thought: ‘safety, I would have never imagined that to be the answer.’ And, you know, of course, we're not talking about physical safety. We're talking about psychological safety - about feeling safe to speak up when something bad happens or safe to be your authentic self. So it hit me hard because I thought: ‘my gosh, what do we do about that?’ You know, and I would say to these people: ‘well, why don't you just speak up to your boss or your manager?’ And they said: ‘are you kidding me? Speaking up? That that would be career suicide! And I might lose my job, or I might get a terrible performance review.’
So, you know, Matt, I realized that that was part of the work that I needed to develop - helping people give each other and receive feedback, how to give and receive feedback in a way that didn't feel so threatening. It didn't feel like criticism. It didn't feel like: ‘oh my gosh, you know, I'm a bad person. This person's telling me.’ So, and I, of course the biggest challenge there was taking the shame out of it because people feel so ashamed when they feel like they might've violated somebody's dignity. And so safety was number one because it created a whole new dimension of the work, which was helping people understand how to give and receive feedback. But the other is recognition. I have to say recognition was another one, you know, even though bosses think, and there's some studies on this, that a lot of the managers and supervisors believe that they give recognition and that the pat on the back, you know, thank you very much for your contribution, even though they believe they do. In fact employees don't feel as though they do. So I work a lot with managers and leaders on what it looks like to give recognition and how, how that's received by people. And I can,
Matt Meyer
Does that Donna, does that go to authenticity or is it more complicated than that? Because I know so many managers who would as a process, as a, as an exercise, would look to give positive feedback. But as you say, it's about how that's received. And I think that would be interesting to explore what lessons there are for leaders, because at the end of the day, you know, we would all say that creating an open communicative environment and receiving and giving feedback are critical to leadership, but it was like, that's not happening.
Donna Hicks
Well, one of the things that I've discovered, cause I've done many of these now, but what I've discovered in interviewing people, employees is I simply ask them, how would you like to be recognized? That simple question, that information, the bosses, the managers can say to their people: ‘look, I really want to make it easy to thank you. And to give you recognition when I feel you've done a great job, how do you want me to do that?’ And that question opens doors like you wouldn't believe - not only are they asked about recognition, but they feel seen, they feel like: ‘oh, this is important to you that I am recognized. And that I'm recognized in the way that I want to be recognized. You know, Matt, this is not really tough stuff. You know, this isn't hard. This is more like common sense. This is how I mean to ask somebody: ‘Okay, Matt, you know, I'm your boss. You know, I really want to figure out how to thank you when you've done a great job. What would you like me to say? How would you like me to go about it?’ And then that opens up a conversation between you and me. And it just, it, it actually creates a more intimate relationship because you're, you're asking a question, a deep question about how they want to be acknowledged.
Matt Meyer
And you're acknowledging the individuality in that, which I think is so important. I mean, we talk about the way to lead organizations and the business schools, trainers, how to do that. And our profession trains us in how to be professional. But you know what you're saying brings us back to that humanity piece, which is how a human conversation at a human level with an individual. And then the word individual is important because they're individual. I'll come back to the question I asked you a minute ago because I'm unfairly cutting across you, but one of the things I took and I think it was from your first book, was this idea that you can be human enough as a leader to come back. And if something doesn't go well, you can go back to that person and to that conversation and say: ‘That didn't go well, can I have that conversation with you again?’ Which is a concept I absolutely loved. And I used it shortly after I read it as I was really empowered as a leader. It was a really empowering exercise to go back to someone in my organization and say: ‘We had a conversation. I don't think that went very well. I'm sure you don't either. Let's do it again.’ And again, it's back to that human connection.
Donna Hicks
Yeah. Well, I mean, again, the whole idea is simply: ‘how do I make a connection with another person in a way that, acknowledges, in the case right here, when you might've made a mistake, when you might have said something that was hurtful, you might've said something that violated the person's dignity and to be able to have that personal strength, internal strength to say: ‘Hey, you know what, I'm going to go back to that guy or that woman and say, just like you said it, I think that conversation we had the other day didn't go so well. And I've been thinking about it, ruminating over it. Can we rewind that tape? Can we rewind it and start again?’ And you know, you can always add a little humor in there too. It's like: ‘Look, I couldn't sleep last night. Cause I'm thinking about that way I talked to you the other day.’
So, you know, it's, it's just a simple gesture that has such a profound impact on people. And I talk about honoring dignity. That's what you're doing. And you are making yourself vulnerable. This isn't, again, it's part of this humility in leadership that you are not going to look like the person who has all the answers and all the power and you're going to be this and you are making it safe for them to feel, to be vulnerable. And I think that's the key here is making it safe to be vulnerable for you and for the people with whom you're working.
Matt Meyer
And definitely my experience of that, of going through that process in that example was that, yeah, it was, it was important to the person I was talking to, but I actually felt great after that because I felt I'd been authentic with them and to myself and the fact that we can acknowledge that things don't go well and go back. And as you say, rewind and have another go. There's more authenticity, I think, in that powerful example. So we've talked about the two key dignity violations, but we also recognized, I think when we were talking earlier that dignity is something inherent that, you as an individual, control and can in some senses choose to give away or not. So how do people go about defending their dignity? What, you know, from your experience in the corporate world, what are the key steps to defending your dignity?
Donna Hicks
Well, first of all, let me just back up one step before that, because it's an important building block for what I'm going to say about defending dignity. You know, when I first started thinking about dignity and what looking at the parties and the conflicts that I was working on and the people in the way they reacted when their dignity had been injured and when they were assaulted, I realized that one of the things that they would say to me is that we demand to be respected and they would use the word respect because the other side stripped me of my dignity and my people, my community, they strip us of our dignity. And, and I would think: ‘oh, of course, that's one of the reasons why they're fighting to restore their dignity.’ And I had a conversation with, and had the pleasure of working with Archbishop Desmond Tutu on a project.
And I told him this story. I said: ‘you know, I said the people that I worked with in international conflicts, they would always say to me that they had their dignity stripped’ and Tutu looked at me and said: ‘what?’ you know, in this like almost shaming way. He asked me: ‘what are you talking about?’ And I said: ‘well, that's what the parties in the conflict would say. They had their dignity stripped.’ And he said to me: ‘nobody can strip us of our dignity, nobody.’ And he said: ‘how do you think we got through apartheid in South Africa? How do you think we managed to survive?’ And he said: ‘it was only because we knew we had our dignity in our hands and that was the one thing that they couldn't take from us.’ And so, whoa, now, Matt, I was just floored because I thought you know, I honestly, at that point before then I did think that maybe we had the power to strip each other of our dignity and, but I was wrong.
And, and Tutu said to me: ‘don't ever perpetuate that myth ever because our dignity is in our hands and our hands only. And we can choose to give it up or let go of it if we want, but we are in charge of our dignity.’ And he said: ‘it can be assaulted. It could be trampled upon. And we have to heal from those dignity wounds, but nobody has the power to take it from us.’ So, whoa, that was a big, huge sea change in my understanding of this concept, because what it really told me is that the first job of ours is to make sure that we have our dignity, that we claim that dignity inside us, that we say: ‘okay, yeah, I'm worthy. No matter what, I may screw up, I may have a bad day and I may violate somebody's dignity. But at the end of the day, it's always there.’
And we can always go back to it as a place of comfort and release, you know, a release like a sanctuary where, when we've had a rough day. And so, so that idea in itself usually takes a long time to work with because most people haven't even thought about number one, that they've got dignity. But to think that it's always there for us, that we're worthy no matter what that is, the grounding, that's the basic grounding, that we need to understand how to work with dignity and defending dignity. If we know Matt, if we really know that our dignity is inside us and it's sacrosanct, nobody can take it away from us. We can have a conversation with it – it goes back to giving feedback and defending dignity. We could go even to our bosses and say in a scaled way, in a skilled way, not as a weapon, but say: ‘Hey, look, you know, you might not have been aware of it, but the way you just talked to me really didn't feel comfortable to me. And look, I know you're a good person. I know this isn't, you know, you probably weren't even aware of how you just treated me’ but this idea of speaking up and speaking your truth about how you were treated by that person in a way that preserves the other person's dignity as well, because you want to see, this is part of the skilfulness in defending your dignity. You want to speak your truth, but you don't want to speak it in a way that annihilates the other person. You want to set it up so that you know, the person who's receiving the feedback can receive it in a way that they can actually learn something about themselves. Because look, we all have blind spots and we all hurt other people without knowing it. But everybody else in our environment knows what we've done. We might not know.
And so being skilled about defending yourself in a way that gives the offender the information about what she might've done or what he might've done that was harmful so that they won't continue that kind of behaviour because these blind spots tend to be repetitive with people. So if we can defend ourselves by just helping the other person see what we can see, but they can't, is a gift to me, it's a gift. So, you know, I kind of turned defending dignity on its head by saying: ‘we're actually doing the other person a favour by helping her see ways in which she violates other people's dignity, including my own.’
Matt Meyer
Well, I know that some of the work you've done has been in Northern Ireland and, you know, the ability to achieve reconciliation, you know, in such a complex environment after so many years, I think, certainly makes me think that some of the rifts and challenges that we see in the corporate world pail in significance. So if the model works in that environment, there's a real opportunity to deploy it in our little, little worlds. I think there's a perception for me. Certainly there was a perception before I started working with you that it's strong people offending the dignity of weaker people and taking advantage of that situation. But actually I think the deeper you go into this, I think this is important in the corporate world because it’s where everything has a hierarchy and that tends to colour how we look at things. But I think there's this issue of, quite often it's the vulnerable people committing dignity violations, not strong people. Is that real, or is that my perception? And, and is that complex dynamic, something that we need to think about in the corporate world when we're thinking about culture and dignity?
Donna Hicks
I remember that we talked about this in our sessions, Matt, and I remember feeling that it was such a profound question that you asked, because the fact is yes, what I have found in my extensive work with people is that those who are the biggest dignity violators have often been violated themselves. They have a long backstory about early imprints of indignity - early ways in which they have been violated. And it just becomes a sort of modus operandi to lash back. If something goes wrong in a relationship, the first instinct with someone who's that vulnerable is to just return the harm, just lash right back, get even, whatever you have to do. And, you know, it's so interesting. I had a conversation the other day about how to not lash back when you see somebody that’s mean and basically I like to think of them as little children and think of this person as a vulnerable little, let's say it's a boy, a vulnerable little boy.
And I, I say to myself, even if I've been the recipient of a dignity violation, some of that meanness, I say, what happened to that poor little boy? How did he get to the point where he feels like this is the right way to behave in and to lash out at people or to bully people? And if, and again, it's about really trying to empathize with what's going on with that person while that person is being a dignity violator. And you know, that's a really hard thing to do. I mean, this is why I called this spiritual practice, because you really have to try to understand is the backstory for this person. And I mean, this has been pretty effective with me because, and other people as well have told me that this has been very helpful to think about: ‘gee, what you know, to say to the person, wow, you're really angry. Would you want that? Do you want to talk about what what's happening with? You want to share this with me?’ And the minute people feel, these vulnerable people feel, that kind of acknowledgement. If somebody says, let's say you're the angry person. And I say to you: ‘gee, Matt, wow, that you just got so upset. Can we, is there something you want to tell me? Is there some more to this story?’ It disarms people, you know, it disarms them. But the thing that I loved about what you, the way you framed this issue is, do I talk about self-awareness you said, do I want to replicate this behaviour? Or do I want to transform? Wasn't it, the trade-off here was, do I want to replicate this, keep doing it over and over and over unconsciously, or do I want to transform this? And self-reflection can lead to self-correction if it's done in a kind and gentle way. So I just never forget that conversation that you started with us that whole tension between just repeating, repeating, repeating our bad behaviour and staying in that pain of our vulnerability or really getting some help and thinking about: ‘wow, you know, what have I done? How am I coming across to people pushing the pause button?’ And just thinking about that for a while, it helps vulnerable people so much.
Matt Meyer
Well, it's an opportunity to be, to be creative in some ways to actually think about how you can transform that gut visceral reaction, whatever it is, that learned behaviour or imprint as you described it. And I think, you know, at the heart of that is this idea of self-awareness. I mean, when we were having that conversation, that you've alluded to, what I was thinking about at the time is what I've learned from the coaching world and coaching practice around challenging assumptions and conscious self-reflection. And I think as, you know, as a leader from a behavioural perspective, and I'm sure my colleagues who are listening to this would pay Testament to this. You know, you make mistakes every day. You do things you could do better the next day, but actually understanding why you did it and challenging the assumptions that underpin some of the behaviours that you repeat is key, but actually taking time out to consciously self-reflect on what's happened and analyse a bit, rather than just plough on to the next, the next replication of whether it's a dignity violation or anything else is absolutely critical as a practice for a leader.
Donna Hicks
Definitely. And you know, one of the things that I learned from one of my students was that when we embrace this dignity approach and try to develop dignity consciousness, one of the things that's really, really important is that we have what my students called a Dignity. You have somebody in your immediate environment that you really trust that you can go to where you say for the purpose of self-reflection, right? You say: ‘gee, I think I might've just really made a mistake here and violated some of the dignity of my direct reports. I think I might've really messed up’ and you talk it through because sometimes it's hard to do the self-reflection just by yourself. And yes, of course. I mean, if you can, that's wonderful. It's so much easier to have this inner reflection. If you have somebody who really cares about you and cares about your growth, your inner growth, as well as your professional growth, who cares and you, and you feel all right, I can talk to this person.
You know, he or she is, is not going to judge me and make me feel ashamed because Matt, the biggest obstacle to this work is shame, shame. People don't like admitting they made mistakes. They don't like admitting they might've looked bad. And this is, it's an obstacle to human growth - shame. I mean, it has a function because it stops us from doing bad things. But the fact is it's something that we have to work on. And if you can have that buddy, that person in your work environment, it doesn't even have to be your work environment can be, your partner could be, your spouse could be your best friend, whatever, but somebody that you openly talk to because it gets you used to being vulnerable. Also, it gives you practice about how do I really admit this to my friend that I've done this and working it through with someone else is always, I think, the best way
Matt Meyer
That that practice point is really important. And I know in some of the training work that you do, you encourage groups to practice. And I think just as you say that familiarity with open expression and thinking about the way that you express things, the words you choose, the emotions you choose as you talk is absolutely critical. I have a dignity buddy. He doesn't know he's my dignity buddy, but the concept is alive and well. And I think it works very well. So I'm really conscious of time, but I guess the million dollar question is if people wanted to promote dignity in their organization, if leaders want to take something from this conversation, what do they do apart from reading Leading with Dignity and Dignity, probably in the opposite order, what do they do? How do they approach that?
Donna Hicks
Well, I wrote that second book leading with dignity as a manual, as a way for someone who is interested in integrating this into their culture, it's a basic step-by-step roadmap and guidelines into how to actually go about doing this. You don't need much more than that book, especially Leading with Dignity to develop this kind of consciousness. And I mean, I've had people who have written to me after trying this in their organizations, you know, 10 years after. And they have made the point that when you get a critical mass of people in the organization who are willing to do this, you know, you might get your outliers who are not willing to do it. And you’ve got to figure out what to do with them. But there is this sort of a critical mass number of people who, once they start it, and once they start developing these ways of connecting with people, treating each other so that they feel safe and seen, and all those wonderful things about honouring dignity, it does shift the culture. It really does, but you need a good small group to start, I think, ‘cause it's hard to do it as one person.
Matt Meyer
So, I mentioned The Hicks Institute at the start of our conversation, what's next for you?
Donna Hicks
Well, we're hoping, I have a colleague, a friend of our mutual friend, we're working together to create, an Institute where people can be trained to do this work, to facilitate the dignity education, all the dignity learning that we do when we go into a consultation so we're hoping to do a certification program and we're hoping to create a sort of reservoir of dignity knowledge. So let's say Matt, you're integrating it into your workplace. And other people who have been trained also are doing it well, we want to come together and share our resources. This is what, let's say, one person from the UK says, this is how I did it. Another person from Germany says, oh yeah, this worked better for me in my environment. So we're going to have, we're going to pool all those resources so that people can tap into them and say, yeah, let me see if I'm an educator. Oh, this is the better way of going about it in education versus the corporate world or GE and faith communities. This might be the better way of entering into this conversation. So anyway, so we're hoping to create that kind of opportunity for people to tap into whatever they feel is their target audience or whatever kind of organization you have. And to share it, the whole idea is sharing, sharing our experiences, sharing our expertise, sharing our unique perspective, so that we have a sort of a clearing house of ideas and ways to promote this notion that all human beings are born with dignity.
Matt Meyer
It sounds really exciting. And for me, I think, you know, thank you for your insights, but also your courage for bringing that model to the world and working in the corporate world, as well, and really look forward to seeing how The Institute develops and seeing more of your work. And thanks so much for your time today. It's been a great conversation.
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